The Age of Consent

Paula Zahn Now
CNN, January 11, 2006

What Should Age of Consent Be For Boys?; Could West Virginia Coal Miners Have Survived?; Former National Security Agency Insider Speaks Out

PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. Glad to have you with us tonight.
And, at this hour, we are just beginning to learn just how close 12 doomed coal miners came to cheating their death.
ZAHN (voice-over): A desperate struggle, dramatic new disclosures about the miners’ final hours at the Sago Mine.
BEN HATFIELD, PRESIDENT & CEO, INTERNATIONAL COAL GROUP: They had no way of knowing what lay on the other side of that thick, black smoke, so they did what skilled miners do, and the best that anyone could have done in their position.
ZAHN: How close did they come to surviving? And new information that raises new questions about safety at the Sago Mine.
And tonight’s “Eye Opener” — young boys, older women. She had an affair with a 15-year-old. Then, she married him. But she can still go to jail for a sex crime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Children, whether they’re male or female, can be victims of predators.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can assure you, he was no victim.
ZAHN: What should the age of consent be for boys?
And under a spell. What makes an otherwise normal teenager suddenly lapse into a deep, deep sleep for weeks at a time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the last time you woke up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to sleep.
LOERRY HALLER, MOTHER: He’s going through so much agony right now. He has been sleeping for 10 days.
ZAHN: The mysterious disorder that makes victims sleep their lives away.
ZAHN: Welcome back.
We begin tonight with a scandal that has racked the Catholic Church and is now back in the headlines. For the first time, a bishop has come forward to say that when he was a boy, he, too, was abused by a priest. He happens to be the highest ranking church official ever to say that he is a victim himself.
ZAHN (voice-over): Bishop Thomas Gumbleton is auxiliary bishop of the Detroit Archdiocese. He says, 60 years ago, he was inappropriately touched by a priest and never told anyone.
BISHOP THOMAS GUMBLETON, DETROIT ARCHDIOCESE: It seems that on our own, we’re not willing, within the church, priests and bishops, to hold ourselves accountable to the victims for what has happened.
ZAHN: The 75-year-old bishop made his announcement at Ohio’s statehouse. Lawmakers there are considering a bill that would invite new lawsuits against sexual abusers in the church, even if the alleged abuse happened as long as 35 years ago.
GUMBLETON: I regret that we need this kind of legislation, but I insist that we do need it.
ZAHN: Gumbleton’s announcement is an act of defiance against bishops in Ohio who are fighting the bill and may trouble many Catholics who want the pedophile priest scandal that has simmered for decades just to go away.
U.S. bishops acknowledge that, between 1950 and 2002, there were nearly 11,000 claims of abuse involving about 4 percent of all priests. Most of the alleged victims, 80 percent, were boys, usually between the ages of 11 and 14. Many of the accused priests are now dead or have been defrocked.
But for decades, the church moved pedophile priests from parish to parish without disclosing their past offenses. U.S. bishops enacted reforms in 2002 to bar all molesters from church work. They have also paid out more than $300 million to compensate victims.
But more victims, like Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, keep coming forward. (END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And Bishop Thomas Gumbleton joins me now.
Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
Can you explain to us exactly what happened to you as a young man?
GUMBLETON: It was a situation where the teacher in the high school, the seminary high school, would take students to his cottage and on a few occasions, I was — usually, it would be one or two. And I was one of them that went. And he would, at some point in the evening, start to wrestle with one of us and get us down on the floor, and then put his hand in the back of your pants. And, at that point, I was always able to pull myself out of it. And so I didn’t experience a terrible, traumatic situation that many of the abuse victims have.
But it still was an act of abuse. It was a sexual assault. And, as I look back on it, I regret very much that it happened, and I also regret that nothing was ever done, not only to hold the priest accountable, but to help the priest, because, obviously, he was in need.
GUMBLETON: And, yes, go ahead.
ZAHN: Were you afraid to say anything about what had happened? Did he tell you not to talk?
GUMBLETON: No, there was nothing like that.
It was — I just got out of it without being severely damaged in any way. And so, at the time, I must confess, that I was also quite naive. I wasn’t so aware of what the implications of it was at the time of what he was doing. I wasn’t aware of the implications. And so I didn’t think it was something that needed to be reported.
If — I’m sure if something had gone on longer or in a more damaging way, I would have been quick to do more about it. But, at the time, I was very naive, underdeveloped as a youngster, and so wasn’t truly aware of what was being done.
ZAHN: But, Bishop, in spite of the fact that you’re saying you don’t think it caused long-term damage to you, do you ever regret the fact that you didn’t come forward sooner? Because we know that in cases like this, where incidents go unreported, it often leads to the escalation of this type of behavior among these priests who are abusing children.
GUMBLETON: Well, of course.
And I have no way of knowing whether it did escalate on his part, whether he abused others, but if I had ever thought about it at the time, I certainly would have done something about it, or I wish — and I wish now that that had been the case.
But it did not even occur to me to do anything about it at the time.
ZAHN: Are you bitter about what happened to you today?
GUMBLETON: No, no, I’m not bitter at all.
Again, I have — I feel very badly for the priest, because I know, as he got older, he was very isolated. He was a very lonely person. He died, you know, as a lonely person without friends, practically speaking. And so, he needed a lot of help. He needed to be counseled. And so — and since it didn’t do a terrible amount of damage to me, I feel he was a victim of not being cared for by the church also.
And I think, in many cases, that was part of the responsibility of bishops at the time, that they didn’t look into what was the situation of priests who were not able to cope adequately with living a celibate life and becoming a wholly developed person at the same time.
ZAHN: Well, Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, we appreciate your sharing your story with us tonight. Thank you.
GUMBLETON: You’re very welcome.
ZAHN: And we are going to shift our focus right now into a segment called “Outside the Law.”
And we focus in on the fate of a death row inmate in Tennessee who now happens to be in the hands of the U.S. Supreme Court. For the first time, the justices today heard arguments in a death row conviction being challenged with new DNA evidence.
Here is Randi Kaye with more.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twenty years ago, this woman, a wife and a mother, was brutally raped and murdered. It happened in the cover of darkness, in the woods in Luttrell, Tennessee, just 100 yards from this tiny shack, the victim, Carolyn Muncey, shared with her husband and two children.
(on camera): Did you kill Carolyn Muncey?
KAYE: Did you rape Carolyn Muncey?
KAYE: But if you didn’t kill her and you didn’t rape her, how did you end up here 20 years ago?
HOUSE: I guess that’s the million-dollar question.
KAYE (voice-over): In fact, it’s a life or death question for Paul House, who has spent the last two decades here at Riverbend Maximum Security Prison.
House was convicted and sentenced to die for the rape and murder of Muncey. House, who now has multiple sclerosis, was a friend of Muncey’s husband. He was also a convicted rapist out on patrol.
PAUL PHILLIPS, PROSECUTOR: I think that he knew that he could trick her to leave the house and get her down by that creek. And I think his intentions were a sexual assault. The reason she was killed is because she fought back.
KAYE: When police questioned House about the murder, he told them he had been home all evening, about two miles away from the rape and murder, but his live-in girlfriend admitted House had gone out for about an hour and he arrived home with cuts and bruises.
(on camera): You don’t buy the story that somebody stopped him on the road and beat him up?
PHILLIPS: I don’t buy it at all, no. That would be called hogwash in Luttrell, Tennessee.
KAYE: House says he left home the night of the murder about 10:45 and returned an hour later. That would give him about 60 minutes to find, rape and kill Carolyn Muncey, then drag her body about 100 yards and hide it.
In order to do all of that in such a short time, the defense figures House had to run there and back, four seven-minute miles, leaving just a half-hour for everything else.
HOUSE: I have been smoking since I was like 12 or 13, a long, long time.
KAYE: So, were you capable of running four miles that night?
HOUSE: Hell, no.
KAYE (voice-over): Still, investigators later confirmed House’s filthy jeans from that night were splattered with the victim’s blood. But the defense said the blood spilled on the jeans from autopsy vials during transport to the lab.
This is Matthew Muncey. He was just 5 when his mom was murdered. This is the first time he agreed to an interview.
(on camera): What do you think about Paul House being on death row?
MATTHEW MUNCEY, SON OF VICTIM: I wish they — I wish they had done killed him.
KAYE: You wish they had killed him?
KAYE: You don’t think they have the wrong man sitting in prison?
KAYE: What do you think about the chance that he might get out?
MUNCEY: Well, ever he comes around here, I will kill him.
KAYE: If he comes around here, you will kill him?
KAYE (voice-over): Throughout the investigation, Paul House has maintained his innocence, even as investigators reported they believed they also found his semen on the victim’s nightgown.
Yet, back then, DNA was not used as a forensic tool, the sample never tested.
(on camera): You’re angry?
HOUSE: Yes, you could say that.
KAYE: Bitter?
HOUSE: That, yes.
KAYE (voice-over): But House’s luck may change. The Supreme Court of the United States is set to hear his case Wednesday. It will be the first DNA case involving a death row inmate to come before the high court.
A few years ago, House pushed his new lawyer, Stephen Kissinger, to order state-of-the-art DNA testing on fluids from the scene. The semen discovered on her nightgown belonged to her husband. So, there’s no proof House raped Carolyn Muncey. The DA says other evidence proves House attempted to rape the victim, like bruises on her thighs.
And because her death occurred during an attempted sexual assault, Phillips says death is the proper punishment.
(on camera): Here on death row, the Supreme Court’s decision could have a major impact. While the court won’t decide Paul House’s guilt or innocence, it will determine if he gets another chance to prove his case. According to The Innocence Project, there are more than 100 inmates hoping to get that chance through DNA. And, for some, like House, the clock is ticking.
NINA MORRISON, THE INNOCENCE PROJECT: For Paul, it’s literally life and death. He will almost certainly be executed if the Supreme Court doesn’t grant him relief.
KAYE (voice-over): Nina Morrison is a lawyer with The Innocence Project. The Project has helped free more than half of the 162 people exonerated based on post-conviction DNA testing. The court has the power to grant House a new trial. Prosecutor Phillips says, if it does, he will try him again.
STEVE KISSINGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR HOUSE: The only justice in this case is Mr. House walking out of prison a free man.
KAYE: Both sides will have just 30 minutes to argue their case before the justices, 30 minutes that might possibly erase the last 20 years of this man’s life.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Luttrell, Tennessee. (END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And we move on now to another subject that’s creating a lot of controversy. There’s been an awful lot of angry debate about secret spying in the war on terrorism, but how do the people who actually did the listening feel about it?
RUSSELL TICE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY OFFICER: There are certain things within these programs that happen that may not be kosher as far as the law.
ZAHN: Coming up next on the CNN “Security Watch,” who is looking over your shoulder?
And a little bit later, an update on the lone survivor of the West Virginia mine disaster. How is he doing tonight? And we actually have some new pictures from inside the hospital of him.
And if your teenagers are always sleeping, it may not be laziness after all. Did you actually know there’s a medical condition that can put them to sleep for days at a time?
ZAHN: On the CNN “Security Watch” tonight, the controversy over government eavesdropping on American citizens happens to be growing. In Louisville today, President Bush again defended his order that allowed the National Security Agency to gather some phone calls and e- mails of citizens without a warrant.
But you’re about to meet a man who believes the story is even more explosive than that.
National security correspondent David Ensor tracked down the former insider who worked within the very spy agency that does the eavesdropping.
RUSSELL TICE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY OFFICER: I have never told anyone anything classified.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He is a big man, with 20 years of experience as an intelligence officer, but now Russ Tice worries his phone may be bugged and he may be under surveillance by the FBI. Tice wants to tell Congress about what he suspects was illegal activity at the place where he worked, the nation’s eavesdropper, the National Security Agency.
(on camera): Mr. Tice, what did you do at the National Security Agency? TICE: I specialized in special access programs, kind of nicknamed them black world programs and ops. There are certain things within these programs that happened that may not be kosher as far as the law.
ENSOR (voice-over): Tice says by law, he can’t say more, but the programs involve ultra-secret signals intelligence using some of the world’s most sophisticated technology to find and monitor threats against the United States.
Tice was fired, he says, for raising another concern, that a Chinese-American colleague might be spying for China.
TICE: Well, they called me in for an emergency psychological evaluation, where they found me to be a psychotic paranoid.
ENSOR (on camera): Are you a psychotic paranoid?
TICE: I certainly am not.
ENSOR (voice-over): Though he was involved in monitoring communications, Tice says he did not know about the surveillance of Americans ordered by President Bush until he read about it in “The New York Times” last month.
(on camera): What do you think of that, and what do people, your former colleagues at NSA that you talk to, think about that?
TICE: Well, most folks at NSA avoid me like the plague, for obvious reasons.
But the few that I have talked to, most of them are very disappointed, some even to the point of feeling betrayed, that because this is drilled into our heads, continually, that you do not spy on Americans. It is gospel. The American people may not know the full extent of what’s involved.
It’s been reported that only maybe a couple thousand communications have been involved. But are you talking about communications that have been whittled down from millions, and, ultimately, these are the conversations that were looked at by analysts? In which case, you know, you’re talking about a haystack that’s been filtered to get a shoe box full of straw.
ENSOR (voice-over): Tice says the information he has about lawbreaking in the NSA special access programs is another NSA bombshell waiting to be revealed, but he has just received a letter from NSA that forbids him from telling the House and Senate Intelligence Committees what he knows, because they are not authorized to hear it.
(on camera): So, what are you going to do now?
TICE: I don’t know. I guess I will have to tell God in my prayers or something.
ENSOR: In fact, though, an NSA official says that another committee has been cleared to hear about the program. And the official adds that whatever it is Tice wants to say about it, he has not yet told the NSA, which could raise questions, in at least some minds, about his credibility.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
ZAHN: And there’s something else to add here.
The Senate hearings on the domestic surveillance program begin next month. We will be watching to see whether Russ Tice testifies after all.
Have you ever accused your teenagers of sleeping their lives away? Why can’t some of them help themselves?
HALLER: And ask, mom, when am I going to be better? He has no control. And that’s very frustrating.
ZAHN: Asleep for 10 days. How could that happen? Well, you’re going to find out tonight in a report about a truly mysterious sleeping disorder.
And, then a little bit later on, some starting new revelations. What really happened last week while the miners were trapped inside their West Virginia coal mine? Was there an exit after all?
ZAHN: So, tonight, after a long day, who is not looking forward to a good night’s sleep? Well, the truth is, most of us don’t get enough of it. Three-quarters of us have trouble sleeping, according to the National Sleep Foundation.
But you’re about to meet a teenager whose life is a nonstop battle against sleep.
Here’s Kareen Wynter, looking into one of the mysteries of the mind.
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He’s only 15 years old, but he’s in a race against time. Eric (ph) Haller seizes every moment on the basketball court and at home with friends. Simple things other people take for granted are precious to Eric (ph). He knows it’s just a matter of time before he loses control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I’m pretty freaked out about that.
WYNTER: Before he has to sleep again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It’s pretty stressful. Sometimes, it’s depressing.
WYNTER: This vibrant, outgoing teenager slips into an altered state, in which he sleeps, and sleeps, and sleeps, sometimes for up to 20 hours at a time, day after day, buried beneath a blanket, getting up only to use the bathroom or for a quick bite.
Eric’s (ph) biggest fear was getting sick and missing Christmas, just like last year. And, this year, it happened again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you remember the last time you woke up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I just want to sleep.
WYNTER: Most medical researchers have never heard of this rare disorder. It’s called Kleine-Levin syndrome. And it’s a mystery. No one yet has found the cause. It’s marked by episodes of excessive sleep, combative and childlike behavior. Each episode can last for weeks, even months, with patients literally sleeping their lives away. Eric (ph) has missed school, holidays, a large part of his childhood.
Loerry Haller says her son usually falls into an episode twice a month. His sleeping spells can last a week or longer.
LOERRY HALLER, MOTHER: He’s going through so much agony right now, and — in this little hell right now that he’s in.
WYNTER: Loerry’s life is also on hold.
HALLER: Our life stops, because Eric’s (ph) life changes drastically. He cries, and asks, mom, when am I going to be better?
WYNTER: It’s 8:00 at night, day nine. Eric (ph) has slept 18 hours today. The next morning, he wakes up, briefly, to use the bathroom.
HALLER: This is day 10, so he has been sleeping for 10 days.
WYNTER: But Eric (ph) goes right back to bed. A few hours go by. Loerry is concerned. Watch what happens when she tries to wake him up in the middle of the afternoon.
HALLER: Aren’t you hungry now? You haven’t eaten in a long time.
HALLER: Eric (ph), do you feel like maybe you’re coming out of it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I just said get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out. WYNTER: It wasn’t always like this. Loerry says her son began to get sick in the sixth grade. She took him to specialists and psychologists, who invariably told her Eric (ph) was either depressed or on drugs, or even faking his condition. It took two frustrating years until one doctor finally reached a diagnosis, Dr. David Palton. He stumbled on the answer in a 20-year-old textbook.
DAVID PALTON, PSYCHOLOGIST: It talked about a case of a 17-year- old young lady who would go to sleep for — for a couple of weeks at a time, and talked about her regression in personality. And then, you know, I knew that that was something close to what I was seeing in Eric (ph).
WYNTER (on camera): Kleine-Levin syndrome. Finally, the Hallers had a name for Eric’s (ph) problem. There are only 500 documented cases worldwide, but this new knowledge was a mixed blessing.
PALTON: Both had a big sigh of relief. It was — it was bittersweet. It was good and bad news, of course.
WYNTER (voice-over): Dr. Palton says there has been almost no research into KLS. No one has come up with a cure. Each case is different. If they’re awakened, some patients might try to stay up in a confused, foggy state. But they quickly go back to sleep.
DR. EMMANUEL MIGNOT, STANFORD UNIVERSITY: There’s actually even a few cases where people have died of suffocating from eating and overeating during these episodes.
WYNTER: Dr. Emmanuel Mignot is a researcher at Stanford University’s Sleep Disorder Clinic.
MIGNOT: We are finding that there’s probably a genetic factor that’s important in predisposing to Kleine-Levin syndrome.
WYNTER: Dr. Mignot says researchers are still far from a cure. Until then, patients like Eric (ph) Haller will live as much of their lives as they can, in those precious moments of reality, before they have to sleep again.
Kareen Wynter, CNN, Placentia, California.
ZAHN: And we found it interesting that Kleine-Levin syndrome first appears during adolescence and, for some reason, mostly in boys.
Coming up next, he is getting visitors now, but he is still in critical condition. What’s happening with the lone survivor of the Sago Mine disaster? We are going to have some new pictures for you from inside the hospital, pictures that have outraged some family members. We will explain why.
And, a little bit later on, oh, baby. Can you believe what one of Hollywood’s hottest couples is up to now?
ZAHN: At this hour, getting some heartbreaking new details about the tragedy of West Virginia’s Sago coal mine, details about how the miners tried and failed to escape the dark, smoky mine just after the explosion. And just how close fresh air may have been, air that could have saved the lives of 12 men. Christopher King has been covering the investigation all day long. He has just filed this report for us.
CHRISTOPHER KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sources involved in the investigation tell CNN that the 12 men who died inside Sago mine may have had breathable air within reach and could possibly have gotten out of the mine on their own. According to sources, a spare tank containing fresh air was available and, sources say, the trapped miners could possibly have brought it into their self-made barricade and used it to supplement the air inside their emergency packs.
However, it isn’t clear how much air was inside the tank at the time of the fatal explosion. CNN has also learned that the miners tried to escape using a rail car. Ben Hatfield, CEO of International Coal Group, which owns the mine, says footprints near the mine car do indicate the men tried to get out. But, Hatfield says, the men may have been disoriented in the confusion, in the darkness and the chaos.
BEN HATFIELD, CEO, INTERNATIONAL COAL GROUP: It’s clear that the crew went to the intake escape way trying to go to the outside and probably encountered very thick, very dense black smoke.
C. KING: CNN has also learned that rescue teams have been using two-way radios to communicate between each other and the command based outside the mine, some say accounting for discrepancies in the first reports that the 12 trapped miners were alive, only to find out later that they were actually dead.
HATFIELD: I heard reports that word had to get relayed four to seven times before it actually got back out to the outside. So obviously there’s a ripe opportunity there for misunderstanding and miscommunication.
C. KING: In the meantime, a new federal report says the Sago mine was cited for unsafe conditions just three weeks before the explosion that took the lives of the 12 miners. According to the Mine Safety and Health Administration, Sago mine was, last year cited for 208 violations, 17 of which involved conditions that inspectors say could have caused fires or explosions.
Some of the violations occurred prior to International Coal’s ownership. The agency cited ICG for, quote, “excessive amount of combustible materials,” and, quote, “a high degree of negligence for the health and safety of them miners.” Hatfield acknowledges the violations, but he says the company is working to correct any problems.
HATFIELD: The Sago mine was a safe operation. Everything that we saw, everything that we know as mining professionals said that the violations that do exist are being remedied.
C. KING: International Coal says most of the citations are due to spilled coal in the mine. The company is challenging nine of those violations and defends their record by saying inspectors would not let the mine operate if it were hazardous to workers.
HATFIELD: We have heard nothing in the course of all this debate about safety violations that remotely connects with the current assessment of what’s likely the cause of the explosion.
ZAHN: And that was Christopher King reporting. Tonight, the only survivor of the Sago mine disaster has still not come out of a coma. Randy McCloy is lying in a hospital bed in Morgantown, West Virginia, still in critical condition. And doctors say it could take a very long time for him to wake up. Chris Huntington is in Morgantown for us tonight with the very latest on McCloy. What are you being told?
CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Randy McCloy, rescued from the deep. The young man who now lies in what his doctors call a moderate stage coma, something like a deep sleep. His wife Anna and their little boy and baby girl constantly at his bedside, urging him to wake up.
ANNA MCCLOY, WIFE OF MINE DISASTER SURVIVOR: He looks good. His coloring is good and all.
HUNTINGTON: His survival has brought this tightly knit mining community its only bright light. Nothing but kind words, prayers for a swift recovery, hope, not blame.
TAMBRA FLINT, MINE SURVIVOR’S MOTHER: When you talk about things that he really loves to do or if his children are around, he’s moving a lot more. You can just tell that he’s aware.
HUNTINGTON: But in the pages of a supermarket tabloid, McCloy’s brother, Matthew, has broken ranks with the rest of the family, lashing out and selling the paper this photo of Randy in intensive care.
MATTHEW MCCLOY, MINE SURVIVOR’S BROTHER: The world needs to be shocked because we need to have better laws to keep this from ever happening again to other miner’s families.
HUNTINGTON: The rest of Randy’s family members attacked “The National Enquirer” for preying on their misfortune. The family spokeswoman tells CNN that Randy’s wife and mother are outraged at Matthew’s public outburst and issued the following statement. “The family will not talk about a story from a tabloid newspaper nor are they interested in a discussion about these kinds of stories in those kinds of papers. The information was paid for by the tabloid paper in the amount of $800 and was done so without permission of Randy’s wife, Anna.”
M. MCCLOY: I took this picture of my brother because I love my brother, his family and Anna, and I believe they need to pass better laws and the government is being left in the dark about what’s going on. And I believe that – I know it’s a shocking picture.
HUNTINGTON: “The National Enquirer” confirms it paid Matthew McCloy $800 and says it will pay him an additional $1200.
PAUL FIELD, “NATIONAL ENQUIRER”: Matthew felt very strongly about this sort of story we were planning and sort of investigation, the inquiries that we were making.
HUNTINGTON: Matthew tells the “Enquirer” that Randy complained of safety issues days before the Sago mine disaster when he found a pocket of potentially explosive methane gas trapped in a tunnel roof. The rest of McCloy’s family would neither confirm nor deny those allegations. The mine company CEO had this to say.
HATFIELD: I’m not aware of any such communication or complaint from Randal McCloy, but I can tell you from visiting his family, they’ve been very supportive of the company. Those are great people. They’re praying hard for him to pull through.
HUNTINGTON (on-camera): Now, Paula, Anna McCloy has made it clear all along her only real concern is her husband Randy’s recovery and not media attention. We tried, unsuccessfully, to get in touch with Matthew McCloy. “The National Enquirer” tells CNN it has him locked up in an exclusive deal. Paula?
ZAHN: Chris Huntington, thanks so much for the update.
So we’ve got a real treat for you all tonight. The King is here. LARRY KING LIVE coming up in 20 minutes or so.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: I am impressed with the set.
ZAHN: I am flattered. This is the first time in years that you actually walked the 50 yards over to my studio.
KING: I have entered the Paula Zahn studio, which is at the end of the hall. It’s like, she’s down there.
ZAHN: He has landed a huge exclusive tonight with James Frey, the author of “A Million Little Pieces” who is under fire for exaggerating the story of his life.
KING: Boy, is he. It’s an incredible story. One of those stories — there’s the cover of the book. This book has sold — well, in 2005, it sold 1.7 million. It came out in 2003 and sold a lot more up to then. Of course, Oprah made it her, I think, book of the year.
ZAHN: I wouldn’t be surprised if this controversy ends up selling more books. Because people are going to want to see what is real and what isn’t.
KING: Of course, it’s the largest selling non-fiction title “Harry Potter.” Fiction outsells non-fiction in America about five to one.
ZAHN: It all got started with “The Smoking Gun.”
KING: This guy on the Web site releases eight or nine supposed things. Again, I don’t know. I’m going to find out what there is to ask, find out what Mr. Frey responds to them. His mother will be on later on in the show. He has had an incredible life, according to the book. And so many people love this book.
ZAHN: They do. What is at issue …
KING: They love this book.
ZAHN: You see it on Web sites now, people saying we don’t care if it’s true or not. What’s at issue is they’re trying to square what police records said about what exactly happened to him …
KING: He lived through so many hardships, drugs and alcohol and jail and all that. Of course, if it’s fabricated, that is going to take quite a toll. He has got a second book out. People can’t tell me — people tell me they can’t wait to read his second book. Obviously he’s a good writer. If you just skim through it, you can see there’s a Hemingway touch to him. He writes in staccato sentences. I did this. I did that. I went on the train. I got off the train. I like that kind of writing. It’s easy to read. And I would say it’s compelling.
ZAHN: Sure. But that’s not at issue. Because the readers who …
KING: No. What’s at issue …
ZAHN: The readers saying that it’s not true.
KING: Of course, you have the question of Oprah. She’s the biggest single female figure in the world, probably. Certainly in broadcast figure in the world.
ZAHN: She’s bigger than you, Larry?
KING: Female.
ZAHN: Oh, I forgot that salient word.
KING: If she likes a book, it’s a best seller. If she takes old books, and makes them best sellers, books that were out 30 years ago and reviews them again. So this is – and of course, she has not commented.
ZAHN: It will be interesting to see. You will comment tonight with James Frey. We look forward to the interview.
KING: It will be right at the top of the hour. Immediately following — Do I leave now? What do I do?
ZAHN: Do you want to walk out on camera and ruin the shot or do you want to sit there and …
KING: I’ll sit.
ZAHN: No, surprise them.
KING: Bye, Paula.
ZAHN: Bye, Larry. Have a good show.
KING: I’m going.
ZAHN: Bye. Really appreciate you dropping by. Coming up, we change our focus to a 37-year-old woman who has a 15-year-old husband. Can you believe she sees absolutely nothing wrong with that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can assure you, he was no victim.
ZAHN: Thank you, Larry. Some people would beg to disagree. Coming up, is it love? Is it lust or is it child abuse?
Also ahead …
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They’re Hollywood’s latest superstar couple, affectionately called Brangelina. But for months Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie have been dodging rumors that she’s pregnant. Well, the speculation is officially over. I’ll have the details when PAULA ZAHN NOW returns.
ZAHN: We have something now we want you to think about. How old is old enough to have sex? Parents and teachers struggle with that question all the time. And I think most of us would say that it’s not okay for a 40-year-old man to sleep with a 16-year-old girl, but if you flip the equation around, let’s say a 40-year-old woman having sex with a 16-year-old boy, is that a case of child abuse or is it just boys being boys? We’re going to debate that issue in just a moment. But first, a look at a phenomenon making more and more headlines these days in tonight’s “Eye Opener.”
ZAHN (voice-over): Young boys lusting after older women. It’s a familiar refrain in hit songs like “Stacey’s Mom,” movies like “American Pie”.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you object if I said you were quite striking?
ZAHN: And the ultimate coming of age movie.
DUSTIN HOFFMAN, ACTOR: Mrs. Robinson, you’re trying to see dues me.
ZAHN: “The Graduate.”
In popular culture, adolescent boys are often depicted as all too willing victims, but when a boy is under his state’s legal age of consent, victim is exactly what the law says he is.
DAVID SOARES, D.A., ALBANY COUNTY, NY: Children, whether male or female, children can be victims of predators in our community. And it shouldn’t make a difference if the victims are, in fact, young boys.
ZAHN: While there’s no data on whether more women are molesting kids today, we do know the number of high-profile cases of women being arrested for sex crimes is on the rise. Raising controversial questions like, does it make a difference if the victim is a boy or a girl? How old is old enough? And should the law be applied equally in every situation?
LISA CLARK, MARRIED 15-YEAR-OLD BOY: Actually, I told him no several times, because I preferred someone older, but he just — he was just so nice, you know.
ZAHN: Thirty-seven-year-old Lisa Clark maintains her 15-year-old boyfriend pursued her, not the other way around.
CLARK: I can assure you, he was no victim.
ZAHN: After becoming pregnant, Georgia law allowed Lisa to marry the 15-year-old, but she is still facing possible jail time on molestation charges. Here are some other recent cases where older women have been caught having sex with young boys.
Former Catholic school teacher, 42-year-old Sandra Beth Geisel, served six months in jail for having sex with a 16-year-old after the school prom. Twenty-year-old middle school teacher, Debra LaFave was sentenced to house arrest after having sex with a 14-year-old student in her home and a classroom. Thirty-one year old teaching intern Margaret Debarraicua (ph) was sentenced to jail after she was found having sex in a parked car with a 16-year-old. Her two-year-old son was in the backseat at the time.
And 35-year-old social studies teacher, Nicole Barnhart is facing two years of jail after having sex with a 16-year-old boy who, according to court documents, said he doesn’t consider himself a victim.
So, does it make a difference if the boy involved doesn’t want to press charges or if, as Lisa Clark maintains, the boy pursued the woman, not the other way around? Not in the eyes of the law. In most states, you have to be at least 16 to have consensual sex with an adult. But a few demand teens wait until they are 17 or 18. Well, around the world, there is no consensus either. Spain allows sex with an adult at 13. Ireland says 17. And in France, the number is 15. So, what makes a Spanish boy ready for sex at 13, but an Irish or American boy not ready until many years later? For Lisa Clark, the problem lies with the law itself. Not her relationship. When she’s with her teenaged husband, she says age isn’t an issue.
CLARK: We have actually had a very good relationship. Better than a lot of marriages I know. And a lot of relationships I know. And, you know, I’ve been married before and I have as good a chance at lasting with this one as I did with someone my own age.
ZAHN (on camera): Well, it’s time to debate this issue now. I’ve joined by Judith Levine, author of “Harmful to Minors,” who says each case is different but not always wrong. And psychoanalyst Dr. Richard Gartner who says these women are harming young boys. He is the author of “Beyond Betrayal, Taking Charge of Your Life After Boyhood Sexual Abuse.”
Good to have both of you with us. Judy, I’m going to start with you tonight. You just heard Lisa Clark, 37 years old, saying she has a healthy relationship with her 15-year-old husband. How is that not child abuse?
JUDITH LEVINE, “HARMFUL TO MINORS”: Well, first of all, I have no way of knowing what this woman’s relationship is like with her 15- year-old husband. He’s not a child. He’s a teenager. There’s really a difference between a teenager and a child. And, as you just said, around the world, people as young as 13 are not only having sex, but getting married, you know, fighting in wars, working in the fields, taking care of young children. So, it’s really a case by case basis.
ZAHN: Richard, in a lot of these cases, the young boys view what they have done as something that will almost get them a trophy at the end of the day among their classmates. In many of these cases, they refuse to testify themselves as victims in this case.
DR. RICHARD GARTNER, PSYCHOANALYST: Right. It’s very common for adolescent boys to say either that they wanted the situation, that they pursued the other person or certainly that they weren’t harmed by it. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t harmed by it. It means that they don’t believe they were harmed by it at that time.
ZAHN: What about that, Judy? Do you concede that and that it can be damaging to these kids down the road?
LEVINE: Harm is something that we can measure in certain circumstances. You smoke a cigarette, you might get lung cancer. And so, that’s a good reason to tell kids not to smoke cigarettes. Psychological harm, however, is a much vaguer and more subjective phenomenon. So, for Dr. Gartner to be telling his patients or young men that they are harmed when they don’t, themselves, feel harmed, to me, is a questionable pursuit.
GARTNER: I don’t try to convince anyone that they were abused. I have seen hundreds of men in the last 20 years who come to me because they are now looking back at experiences in adolescence or earlier that, at the time, often they didn’t feel was bad for them and now they’re looking back on their lives and saying, wait a minute. I’ve been an alcoholic, I’ve been a drug addict. I’ve had a sex addiction. I’ve never been in a relationship that lasted more than three months. Maybe I should rethink what happened to me then and what sex meant to me when it started as an exploitation.
ZAHN: Dr. Richard Gartner, Judith Levine, thank you both for your time.
GARTNER: Thank you.
LEVINE: Thank you.
ZAHN: I appreciate it.
And we move along now. Coming up, a story will keep the tabloids in business for nine months or so, actually a little bit less. How much less? Stay tuned.
ZAHN: Oh, yeah. You know those two in the picture. As rumors go, this has been one of the juiciest swirling around Hollywood these days, two of the big screens biggest stars are not only an item, but they’re also expecting a child. Well, today, guess what, just hours ago, really, rumor suddenly became reality. And entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas has more on Brad and Angelina and the baby in their future.
SIBILA VARGAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the very beginning, the pictures have told the story, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie themselves would not, that they are a couple, officially, romantically involved together. Their names written so often next to each other are a tabloid phenomenon, Brangelina. And with these pictures, the new bombshell, Brangelina’s baby in our sister publication “People” magazine.
JESS CAGLE, “PEOPLE MAGAZINE”: The first thing we did was get our hands on the photos that were taken when she landed in the Dominican Republic. For the first time, you can really see she’s pregnant. She seemed to be ready to say by wearing this tight, black, tank top, hey, world, I’m pregnant and I’m ready to tell you about it.
VARGAS: Pitt’s publicist confirms to CNN he and Jolie are expecting their first child together, adding to the two kids Jolie already has adopted.
CAGLE: It definitely does seem brad was very, very ready to start a family. He suddenly, 18 months since he filmed “Mr. And Mrs. Smith” with Angelina Jolie, has three children.
BRAD PITT, ACTOR: You think this story is going to have a happy ending?
ANGELINA JOLIE, ACTRESS: Happy endings are stories that haven’t finished yet.
VARGAS: The couple that met on the set of “Mr. And Mrs. Smith” in 2004, there was talk about behind-scenes chemistry that seemed to carry over onscreen. In public at first they distanced themselves from the chatter and from each other like at this event in early 2005, where they seemed to make an effort to stand apart, but shortly after this appearance, Pitt’s then wife, Jennifer Aniston, filed for divorce.
The Brangelina saga unfolded even more in a “W” magazine spread last summer. Pitt and Jolie posed as a family. Pitt has traveled around the world with Jolie in her role as U.N. humanitarian ambassador. He accompanied her when she develop adopted a second child from Ethiopia. This past December Brad Pitt signaled again that they were a family, he petitioned to adopt both kids.
CAGLE: Now that they’ve made public the fact that they are going to have a baby, it really is taking it to the next level, and they are definitely telling the world that we are a couple and we are a family and we plan to be together for quite some time.
VARGAS: Sibila Vargas, CNN, Los Angeles.
ZAHN: And we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be right back.
ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here tonight. Thanks so much for joining us. LARRY KING LIVE starts in a couple seconds with an exclusive interview with controversial author James Frey asking questions about whether his best-selling memoir is fiction.
Have a great night. Thanks for joining us.